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  1. #1
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    Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    How can cheese be haraam? As some cheese packets have a V sign for vegetarian and others do not. The ones which do not have a V sign, are they haraam?

    Also, if cheese can be haraam, can milk be haraam to? Vegetarian milk and non vegetarian milk???

    I think I remember someone saying here on ummah.com that the hanafi school of thought allows vegeratian and non vegeratian cheese??? But the other schools do not??????
    Last edited by nami; 22-08-08 at 09:12 AM.
    ...

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Cheese comes from cow. Thats all i know. Good question
    الصلوۃ والسلام علیک یا سیدی یارسول اللہ

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasim2k7 View Post
    Cheese comes from cow. Thats all i know. Good question
    That's why I find it confusing....
    ...

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    في أستراليا truepath's Avatar
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by nami View Post
    That's why I find it confusing....
    This is what many people dont seem to understand and hence ignore and eat all types of cheese.

    However, there the one which is marked with V sign is vegetarian cheese and is halaal and the other is not. In the cheese on which they do not put the V sign, I think they add animal fat / rennet to it. Be it from cow or any other animal. Animal fat is not halaal unless the animal has been slaughtered in islamic manner.

    PizzaHut in UK clearly specifies to people when they ask whether the cheese being used in the pizza is vegetarian cheese or not because they use both type of cheese, veggy and non-vegetarian cheese. They say it on inquiry if asked to them.
    لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    This is what many people dont seem to understand and hence ignore and eat all types of cheese.

    However, there the one which is marked with V sign is vegetarian cheese and is halaal and the other is not. In the cheese on which they do not put the V sign, I think they add animal fat / rennet to it. Be it from cow or any other animal. Animal fat is not halaal unless the animal has been slaughtered in islamic manner.

    PizzaHut in UK clearly specifies to people when they ask whether the cheese being used in the pizza is vegetarian cheese or not because they use both type of cheese, veggy and non-vegetarian cheese. They say it on inquiry if asked to them.
    yeah they put animal rennet in it to make it more tasty but mostly cheese is vegetarian because it comes from the milk part in the cow not the meat part
    الصلوۃ والسلام علیک یا سیدی یارسول اللہ

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Casu Marza I think these would be haraam. It's Italian maggot cheese.
    Last edited by Anonymous2008; 22-08-08 at 09:29 AM.

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    This is what many people dont seem to understand and hence ignore and eat all types of cheese.

    However, there the one which is marked with V sign is vegetarian cheese and is halaal and the other is not. In the cheese on which they do not put the V sign, I think they add animal fat / rennet to it. Be it from cow or any other animal. Animal fat is not halaal unless the animal has been slaughtered in islamic manner.

    PizzaHut in UK clearly specifies to people when they ask whether the cheese being used in the pizza is vegetarian cheese or not because they use both type of cheese, veggy and non-vegetarian cheese. They say it on inquiry if asked to them.
    it seems that according to the hanafi school of thought, rennet (as long as it is not from pig) is permissable, due to this hadith:

    It has been narrated in the major hadith collection s from Abdullah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him and hi s father) that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) was brought cheese in the Battle of Tabuk. He asked for a knife then recited 'bismillah' and cut the cheese.' (Abu Dawud)
    As:

    The lawfulness of rennet does not depend on the slaughterer being a Muslim or non-Muslim, in fact it depends upon whether there is life in it or not. The circulation of blood in an organ is the cause of life. No blood flows through rennet, therefore rennet is not a living thing. Therefore, it cannot 'die' and it is thus permissible to consume rennet.
    However:

    Cheese made with animal rennet other than a pig source is halal. The fuqaha explain, however, that it is better to avoid whenever reasonably possible when its source is unknown because of the difference of opinion between the Sunni schools of fiqh regarding its permissibility and the doubt therein.
    Source
    ...

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by nami View Post
    it seems that according to the hanafi school of thought, rennet (as long as it is not from pig) is permissable, due to this hadith:

    As:

    However:

    Source
    I personally buy only that cheese which has V sign or a halaal stamp from a proper and authentic halaal authority.

    Like for example I dont buy things even if it says halaal from some authority in Turkey cuz, boy! u never know as they're doin everythin to get EU membership so cant really trust how authentic that organisation in question from countries like turkey etc wud be unless someone knows it and confirms to me that its an authentic authority and can be trusted. But this is jusy my approach.
    لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    I personally buy only that cheese which has V sign or a halaal stamp from a proper and authentic halaal authority.

    Like for example I dont buy things even if it says halaal from some authority in Turkey cuz, boy! u never know as they're doin everythin to get EU membership so cant really trust how authentic that organisation in question from countries like turkey etc wud be unless someone knows it and confirms to me that its an authentic authority and can be trusted. But this is jusy my approach.
    they have turkey halal ham too. ewww i never ate it though even at hajj in saudi they have these bacon looking slices. halal ofcourse
    الصلوۃ والسلام علیک یا سیدی یارسول اللہ

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    I personally buy only that cheese which has V sign or a halaal stamp from a proper and authentic halaal authority.

    Like for example I dont buy things even if it says halaal from some authority in Turkey cuz, boy! u never know as they're doin everythin to get EU membership so cant really trust how authentic that organisation in question from countries like turkey etc wud be unless someone knows it and confirms to me that its an authentic authority and can be trusted. But this is jusy my approach.
    Still kind of risky to use the V sign because the V sign doesn't always mean it is halaal. An example below.

    The exact processes in the making of cheese varies between different varieties. However, all cheeses are made by essentially the same method. Initially, the milk is usually pasteurised by heating at 72C for 15 seconds to destroy potentially harmful bacteria. The milk is then cooled to around 30C and a starter culture of lactic acid bacteria is added to help souring. These convert lactose into lactic acid and help in the coagulation process. In addition, they also have a beneficial effect on the eventual quality, taste and consistency of the cheese. Some cheeses are coagulated entirely by lactic acid bacteria and are known as lactic-curd or acid-curd cheeses. However, some cheeses sold as lactic-curd cheese may have had rennet added.

    The next stage is the addition of rennet, containing the enzyme chymosin. Rennet is usually sourced from the abomasum (fourth stomach) of newly-born calves. Here, chymosin aids the digestion and absorption of milk. Adult cows do not have this enzyme. Chymosin is extracted by washing and drying the stomach lining, which is then cut into small pieces and macerated in a solution of boric acid or brine at 30C for 4-5 days. Pepsin may sometimes be used instead of chymosin. This is usually derived from the abomasum of grown calves or heifers, or less commonly pigs. Pepsin may be mixed with calf rennin. Rennet coagulates the milk, separating it into curds and whey. This is called curdling.

    Chymosin breaks down the milk protein casein to paracasein which combines with calcium to form calcium paracaseinate, which separates out. Milk fat and some water also becomes incorporated into this mass, forming curds. The remaining liquid is the whey. The strength of different rennets can vary, though usual strength varies between 1:10,000 and 1:15,000 i.e. one part rennin can coagulate 10-15,000 parts milk.

    Other substances may also be added during the cheese making process. Calcium chloride is added to improve the curdling process, and potassium nitrate is added to inhibit contaminating bacteria. Dyes (e.g. annatto, beta-carotene), Penicillium roquefortii mould spores to promote blue veining, or propionic acid bacteria to encourage hole formation may be added.

    Following curdling, the curds are cut and drained. The size of the cut and the methods used vary for different cheese varieties. For soft cheeses, the curds are sparingly cut and allowed to drain naturally. For hard cheeses, the curds are heated and more whey is drained off. The curds are then cut into small pieces, placed in vats and pressed.

    After pressing, the curds may be treated in a number of ways. They may be moulded into different shapes, soaked in a saltwater solution, be sprayed with mould forming spores or bacteria, washed in alcohol, or covered in herbs.

    The final stage is ripening, or maturation. This can vary in length from 4 weeks to 2-3 years, depending on the type of cheese. During ripening flavours develop, the cheese becomes firmer and drier, and special characteristics such as holes, blue veining and crust formation occurs.
    Probably best to stick with the halaal stamp. Where can I get cheese which has the halaal stamp?
    ...

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Kasim I know what your saying.

    The problem is these days the approach of a muslim is, everything is halaal in a muslim country. They dont tend to inquire any further especially in muslim countries.

    However, when I went to hajj both in Makkah and Madeenah the restaurants where our agent arranged food for us was getting meat imported from countries like Brazil, New Zealand and Australia.

    Now, someone please explain to me why on earther the meat exporters from all these above 3 countries would really give a darn about implementing proper and authentic halaal methods? Who knows that they are running a tape recorder that says "bismillah" and some non muslim wud slaughter it. They are there to make business. so they need to do as many as they can and they will find whatever easy way out to get it done. Then claim it as halaal.

    People buy meat and chicken from Tesco and other chain stores like Asda jus cuz these stores now a days stick a halal label on their product. But how sure can you be whether it was done in a proper authentic halaal manner or like I said, some polish guy might be slaughtering while a cd or cassette is being played which recites "bismillah" all the time in the slaughter house?

    Trust me this not a story but a fact. While I used to live in Southampton. There was a slaughter house where this pakistani brother would go to work. He said besides him there was a polish guy working with him together slaughtering the animals and a "bismillah" cassette or cd was being played while polish guy was slaughtering and he was non muslim.

    This pakistani bro worked for a few days and left the place as he didnt wanted to be a part of it where the person himself would not say kalima but wud slaughter animals one after the other and kamila is played from cassette/cd.

    And those people stick the halaal label and supply in the market saying its halaal meat n chicken. I wonder how many slaughter houses follow these practices.
    لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    i know. this happened in our local area too. the report showed 1000 or 100 (im not sure) animal been slughtered in one day.

    even 100 is hard enough from 9 to 5. so the imam went and asked how did you managed that. they found out a non muslim was slaughtering the animal. it happened on the Hajj eid this year. if your in the uk there is a company called MSPCA i think which authorised a halal dealer and meat
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    In UK I wouldn't trust any halaal stamp unless its HMC halaal stamping.

    nami, no idea. I never saw any cheese with 'halaal' stamp in UK.

    However, here in Bangkok they put halaal stamp from the halaal authority of thailand on everything that is halaal. Somethings that come from malaysia have halal stamp from malaysian halaal authority. But I dunno whether i can really trust these governmental authorities.
    لا أريد مِنْكُمْ جَزَاء وَلا شُكُورًا

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    In UK I wouldn't trust any halaal stamp unless its HMC halaal stamping.

    nami, no idea. I never saw any cheese with 'halaal' stamp in UK.

    However, here in Bangkok they put halaal stamp from the halaal authority of thailand on everything that is halaal. Somethings that come from malaysia have halal stamp from malaysian halaal authority. But I dunno whether i can really trust these governmental authorities.
    malasiya is all halal i heard and all islamic
    الصلوۃ والسلام علیک یا سیدی یارسول اللہ

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    في أستراليا truepath's Avatar
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Kasim2k7 View Post
    malasiya is all halal i heard and all islamic
    lol I have been to malaysia 2-3 weeks ago. I failed to see the all halaal and all islamic part. Kuala Lumpur is getting as mordern and as busier as any other western city

    Wallahu Alam

    I guess it depends on how one defines or interprets the term "islamic". These days I guess everyone has their own interpretation for this term.
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Re: cheese.
    Clearly the issue a lot of people seem to have overlooked is that for milk to become cheese, it has to go through a certain process.
    So people who always say that cheese is just milk, my guess is you've never made it otherwise you'd question HOW you get from milk to cheese.
    Okay, so I haven't made it either. But I do know that enzymes are needed. Traditionally this is done using enzymes from the animal's stomach. Most cheese still uses this method. However now that there is much more of a demand for vegetarian cheese, other non-animal enzymes are used occasionally.

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    So let me get this straight, meat enzymes only found in calves are used in cheese, therefore making it haram? In the end the cheese goes through such a rigorous processes How much of that "meat", which they don't use, only enzymes, still survive? From what I see at the market, if I see the cheese containing small pieces of meat or it actually says it contains a certain meat part, how am I suppose to investigate the details of where american, provolone, or cheddar cheese comes from?
    " The issue in palestine will not be solved by the United States or any western country. It's not going to be solved by Dan Six Pack or Sally Soccer mom! " Anwar Al-Awlaki


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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    you have to be careful with v signs that are meant to represent vegetarian. because the non-muslims consider vegetarian to mean without meat... but sometimes their products with v on are still haraam because though they may be without meat, they are not always without some sort of alcohol such as white wine vinegar etc. i think thats why some cheese is not halaal even if it has v on and Allahu alim
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Macchiato View Post
    you have to be careful with v signs that are meant to represent vegetarian. because the non-muslims consider vegetarian to mean without meat... but sometimes their products with v on are still haraam because though they may be without meat, they are not always without some sort of alcohol such as white wine vinegar etc. i think thats why some cheese is not halaal even if it has v on and Allahu alim
    I agree that you should be carefully, but this only needs to be applied to products that sometimes contain alcohol, such as desserts/ pasta sauces.
    Cheese does not normally contain alcohol.

    I go by the opinion that white wine vinegar is halal as I have consulted several scholars on this. However, there is a difference of opinion.

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by LastFriday View Post
    So let me get this straight, meat enzymes only found in calves are used in cheese, therefore making it haram? In the end the cheese goes through such a rigorous processes How much of that "meat", which they don't use, only enzymes, still survive? From what I see at the market, if I see the cheese containing small pieces of meat or it actually says it contains a certain meat part, how am I suppose to investigate the details of where american, provolone, or cheddar cheese comes from?
    This is why there is actually a difference of opinion and you need to do your research before coming to a decision.
    In fact, this is the case with many products available today. Many people will eat foods containing haraam ingredients because it is 'only a small amount'. However, I think it would best be avoided.

    If you are unsure about the origins of a cheese and wish to be sure before you eat it, then go for one that says 'vegetarian'.

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillity View Post
    I agree that you should be carefully, but this only needs to be applied to products that sometimes contain alcohol, such as desserts/ pasta sauces.
    Cheese does not normally contain alcohol.

    I go by the opinion that white wine vinegar is halal as I have consulted several scholars on this. However, there is a difference of opinion.
    That is what I thought, until I read the second quote in this post:
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost....3&postcount=10
    ...

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    lol I have been to malaysia 2-3 weeks ago. I failed to see the all halaal and all islamic part. Kuala Lumpur is getting as mordern and as busier as any other western city

    Wallahu Alam

    I guess it depends on how one defines or interprets the term "islamic". These days I guess everyone has their own interpretation for this term.
    Truepath, Kuala Lumpur was founded and largely developed by non-Muslim Chinese. I don't think anyone in Malaysia believes that KL was intended to be "all Islamic."

    When I visited the city I met many orthodox Sunni Muslims who told me that they liked to vacation in Kuala Lumpur precisely because of the variety and trustworthiness of the food there.

    Also, I was very pleased to see that non-Muslim tourists in KL are much, much more respectful of Islamic sensibilities than are non-Muslim tourists in, for example, Morocco.

    In the time I was in KL, I think I saw only one non-Muslim tourist who was dressed immodestly and she seemed very out of place. (You've really got to wonder about people like that. I've pretty much decided that there's a real element of craziness in their behavior. In a place where even the great majority of Chinese and Indian residents dress modestly, and where almost all the Malay girls and women observe hijaab, how could you comfortably walk around in very, very short shorts and a halter top???)

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquillity View Post
    I agree that you should be carefully, but this only needs to be applied to products that sometimes contain alcohol, such as desserts/ pasta sauces.
    Cheese does not normally contain alcohol.

    I go by the opinion that white wine vinegar is halal as I have consulted several scholars on this. However, there is a difference of opinion.
    gave white wine vinegar as example, and i agree some dont normally but it depends on the cheese. there are certain types which cannot be made without the alcohol, generally its obvious which ones do and which don't but always best to check inshaAllah if you're not sure.
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese



    Quote Originally Posted by nami View Post
    How can cheese be haraam? As some cheese packets have a V sign for vegetarian and others do not. The ones which do not have a V sign, are they haraam?

    Also, if cheese can be haraam, can milk be haraam to? Vegetarian milk and non vegetarian milk???

    I think I remember someone saying here on ummah.com that the hanafi school of thought allows vegeratian and non vegeratian cheese??? But the other schools do not??????
    Milk is milk, it isn't made; whereas cheese has to be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by truepath View Post
    In UK I wouldn't trust any halaal stamp unless its HMC halaal stamping.

    nami, no idea. I never saw any cheese with 'halaal' stamp in UK.

    However, here in Bangkok they put halaal stamp from the halaal authority of thailand on everything that is halaal. Somethings that come from malaysia have halal stamp from malaysian halaal authority. But I dunno whether i can really trust these governmental authorities.
    Likewise, some of the rubbish others call Halaal...

    HMC Website: Read What They Say.

    Quote Originally Posted by LastFriday View Post
    So let me get this straight, meat enzymes only found in calves are used in cheese, therefore making it haram? In the end the cheese goes through such a rigorous processes How much of that "meat", which they don't use, only enzymes, still survive? From what I see at the market, if I see the cheese containing small pieces of meat or it actually says it contains a certain meat part, how am I suppose to investigate the details of where american, provolone, or cheddar cheese comes from?
    Different cheeses use different methods of coagulation, but yes, when it comes to enzyme coagulation, rennet is used - and yes, most often, the rennet is from young calves, but can be used taken from the stomach of any mammal.

    Regarding the whole wine/vinegar being used idea, isn't that only for when rennet is used and it was the traditional method? Whereas, now they use acid.
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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    Quote Originally Posted by nami View Post
    That is what I thought, until I read the second quote in this post:
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showpost....3&postcount=10
    Hmm, interesting. I would have thought that was specialist cheese though, i.e. 'washed in alcohol' to give it a particular flavour. Maybe if any Muslims are buying unusual cheeses they should check with a cheesemonger before hand..

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    Re: Haraam and Halaal Cheese

    for those that are concerned, animal rennet comes from the stomach lining of calves. The problem is that there isn't nearly enough calf stomachs for the amount of cheese that's being made. Science has found a way to make rennet from vegetables and the supply is cheaper and much more plentiful.
    The only manufacturers that still use animal rennet are the ones making fancy cheeses that are usually at least twice the price of normal brands.
    I took the road less traveled...where the heck am I?


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